10 April 2007
Scholar Discusses Arab, Muslim Aid to Jews During Holocaust
USINFO Webchat transcript, April 10
Robert Satloff, author and noted Middle East sholar, answers questions in an April 10 USINFO webchat on lost stories of Arabs and Muslims aiding Jews during the Holocaust.
Following is the transcript:
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Bureau of International Information Programs
USINFO Webchat Transcript
Lost Stories of Arabs and Muslims Who Aided Jews During the Holocaust
Guest: Robert Satloff
Date: April 10, 2007
Time: 10:00 a.m. EDT (1400 GMT)
Moderator: Welcome to today's webchat with Robert Satloff. We look forward to your questions and comments. The webchat will take place beginning today at 1400 GMT.
We see your questions coming in, however they will only appear on the discussion screen if they are answered by our guest speaker…. If you would like to tell us where you are joining us from, you may select the "comment" option and we will post your comment.
Question [Oujda American Corner]: Thank you very much for choosing to talk about the unknown stories of Arabs and Muslims who aided Jews during the Holocaust especially nowadays with the upgrowing hate towards Arabs and Muslims in non Muslims countries.
In Oujda American Corner (Morocco), we are looking forward to hearing the discussion.
Answer [Robert Satloff]: Good morning. This is Rob Satloff on-line in Washington. I am delighted to participate on this webchat and looking forward to answering your questions about my book.
Moderator: Read more about Dr. Satloff’s book, Among the Righteous at www.publicaffairsbooks.com.
Q [Abraham_Lincoln]: I think that your precious research contributes to reconciliation between Arabs and Jewish people. Do you think that the aids by Arabs and Moslems toward Jews during the Holocaust came from Moslem religious factors or more fundamental human nature?
Do you think that democratization of the Middle East and, consequently, political involvement of more people especially women would facilitate reconciliation between Arabs, Moslems and Jews?
I would appreciate your advice.
A: Motivation is often a very difficult thing to assess and understand. Among Arabs who helped Jews face persecution during the Holocaust were some who were religious officials, like the imam of Paris who most likely saved up to 100 Jews, or the Algerian imams who banned believers from serving as custodians of confiscated Jewish property. But there were also non-religious figures, like Khaled Abdelwahhab, an international traveler and "man of the world" who rescued two dozen Jews in Tunisia. My own instinct is that basic human instinct, more than religious conviction, was the source of these wonderful humanitarian deeds.
Your second question is also complicated and has several components. My own view is that the full emancipation of women is the litmus test of social and political progress in Arab and Muslim societies. The issue of women's role in society is and will be the key battleground between the forces of enlightenment and the forces of regression.
Democratization is a slightly different issue than full freedom for women. Democratization done properly -- i.e., building political systems with strong institutions, independent judiciaries, firm protection for minorities, etc. -- will, over time, contribute to Arab-Israeli peace. Democratization done the wrong way -- i.e., simply empowering the majority without building the foundation of respect for the rule of law -- could lead to a dangerous opening for the most radical elements in society to exert control over the rest. I am hopeful that Middle Easterners will choose the first course and reject the second. The role of women in helping public opinion make the right choice is critical.
Q: In Europe there is sometimes a reluctance to "admit" helping Jews during Second World War. Did you encounter any Arab or Muslim "helper" who did not want to be identified?
A: In general, the experience of Holocaust-era persecution of Jews in Arab lands is something that most Arabs I spoke with do not like talking about -- I expected this. But in the course of my research, I was surprised by the number of heirs of Arab 'rescuers' who were not eager to discuss the exploits of their fathers or grandfathers and were not particularly helpful in assisting me to bring those stories to light. One of my great regrets is that I never personally met or interviewed an Arab "rescuer" directly; I only learned of the deeds of people who have already died. But there was definitely a reluctance on the part of many (though not all) heirs to play a part in the research.
To a large extent, this has to do with the sense that any Arab discussion of the Holocaust inevitably leads to a political validation of Israel. But whatever dispute Arabs have with Israel politically, it does not seem necessary, in my view, for Arabs to deny the heroism and generosity of their fathers and grandfathers who courageously extended a helping hand to Jews in time of need.
Moderator: You can listen to a recorded interview with Dr. Satloff at www.npr.org.
Q: What was the response to your research in the Middle East region?
A: Overall, the response to my research in the Middle East has been very positive. If my goal has been to stimulate discussion on a topic long-considered taboo, I have certainly succeeded. My book has been the subject of major newspaper articles from Morocco to Jordan. Of course, people tend to read into my book what they want to read: al-Ahram (in Cairo), for example, ran a front-page story focusing solely on stories of Arabs who saved Jews; a magazine in Morocco ran a major story on the opposite theme, accusing me of saying that Arabs were like Nazis and that they were responsible for the Holocaust. The reality is that my book is an effort to discuss the full range of choices that Arabs made when the Germans and their European fascist allies imposed Holocaust-era persecution on Jews in Arab lands. Arabs were never responsible for the Holocaust, which I say quite clearly in my book (and that Moroccan magazine eventually had to run a huge correction). But certain Arabs did collaborate with the Germans and participate in the persecution of Jews. So, my point is, some Arab journalists have emphasized the positive things I wrote; others emphasized the negative things I wrote. None of them, I believe, actually read the book! The full story is quite complex.
Two months ago I was invited to travel to Egypt to deliver a set of lectures about my book and I was overwhelmed by the interest it provoked. I spoke at Cairo University, al-Ahram Foundation and other institutions -- even the Arab League! -- and I gave several nationally televised interviews on the subject. At a time when the President of Iran was proclaiming the Holocaust was a myth, I was very pleased to be welcomed in the biggest Arab city and to be able to talk about the Arab encounter with the Holocaust.
Moderator: Interfaith dialogue and the efforts of young Americans to bridge religious and ethnic differences was the subject of a recent USINFO webchat focusing on the experiences of students living in a special dormitory at Rutgers University in New Jersey.
There, 11 female students of various beliefs -- Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Agnostic -- are living and studying side-by-side in a dormitory called the Middle East Coexistence House. Go to our USINFO Webchat Station to read the transcript.
Q [henouka]: WHAT THE QUORAN SAYS ABOUT THE RELATING ARABS/JEWS?
A: I am afraid I am not an expert on the Quran, which contains both very positive and very negative comments about Jews. The focus of my research is not on the historical, religious or ideological approach of Arabs toward Jews but rather on the very real, human decisions that individual Arabs made when they were faced with one of life's most difficult choices -- during a time of war, when fellow citizens are persecuted based on who they are, not what they did, what is your responsibility? I found that many stood by and watched, some collaborated with the persecutors, and a small but powerfully important number took great risk to help and even save Jews.
Q [Kuba]: As is my understanding Arab countries had some degree of mixed ethnicities for many centuries. In your estimation, was this mix a reason for the aid given to Jews? That is to say, a neighbor helps a neighbor because he knows him.
A: I am afraid that is, in my view, too simplistic an explanation. If the fact of mixed ethnicities were the key motivating factor, then there would have been many more stories of Arab rescuers than the ones I found, given how long and deep run the ties between the communities in these countries. There is no doubt that familiarity often played a role in some Arabs extending help to others, but that is not the full story.
In Algeria, for example, leading nationalists realized that Fascist ideology considered Arabs only slightly higher on the racial ladder than Jews; a famous Algerian leader once said that he opposed any persecution of the Jews because once the Europeans were finished with the Jews, they would come after the Arabs. So, there were a range of factors involved in decisions not to support the Fascists -- some personal, some societal, some political.
Moderator: Dear participants, we are still open for your questions and comments. We see your new questions.
Q [Abraham_Lincoln]: Thank you for your insightful answer. Let me ask another question. I was wondering whether the Arabs and Moslems who aided and saved Jews during the Holocaust were themselves charged, persecuted, or executed by the Fascists?
A: Very interesting question. First, we need to remember that the war in Arab lands was over in spring 1943, when the Allies expelled German troops from Tunisia (and the African continent in general). There was little time for the sort of retribution you talked about. But there is no doubt that Arabs were fearful of extending help to the Jews, because of worry about retribution from the Germans and their Axis allies. In Paris, for example, the rector of the Grande Mosquee de Paris, Si Kaddour Benghabrit, was hauled into German headquarters in September 1940 and roughly warned of dire consequences if he didn't stop helping Jews. But because the Germans were also interested in winning over the "hearts and minds" of France's Arab subjects, the Germans never arrested Benghabrit.
In Tunisia, leaders of Moncef Bey's government had to be very secretive in assisting individual Jews, which they did, without drawing the attention of the SS, which was diligent in setting up the architecture of persecution. In direct answer to your question, I don't recall coming across a story of an Arab arrested for aiding a Jew. (Similarly, I only came across one story of an Arab who was arrested by the Allies after the expulsion of German troops for having collaborated with the Germans. That man is a Tunisian named Hassen Ferjani, who was the only Arab ever convicted of a war crime against Jews during the war. There were, of course, many other such collaborators.)
Thank you for giving me the opportunity today to talk about my book, “Among the Righteous.”
Moderator: We wish to thank Dr. Robert Satloff for joining us today. The webchat is now closed. Read more about Dr. Satloff’s book at www.publicaffairsbooks.com.
Please visit our USINFO Webchat Station homepage for more information on upcoming events.
(Guests are chosen for their expertise. The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S. Department of State.)
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